Stoner (El Balancí) (Catalan Edition)
That's why they call them mistakes. I find that looking at video replays of any given incident is much more repeatable and reliable than trying to determine what a rider's intentions are. As far as I am aware we are not able to read people's thoughts. You are trying to create a grey area where there is none. I'm sure Simonchelli didn't purposely knock Pedrosa down yet he got a penalty. When Toseland got a ride through for a starting line infraction I don't think he moved on purpose. Yet Rossi breaks a rule and all of a sudden people are wondering what his intentions were. His intention, like every other racer on the track, was to make a pass.
In the process he ran off the track and reentered improperly. A ride through penalty would have been suitable. Maybe a 10 sec penalty like the one he got at PI where he then made a 15 sec gap and won. Hi Chris, first off just wanted to say I have been following this site for several years and have noted several of your opinions which I often agree with, and respect. I recently created a username and pass to log in and participate in the often highly intelligent debate here, as I feel of late there have been new participants who have been less than respectful and in the spirit of this forum.
Now to address your points: From what I understand and forgive me if I have misinterpreted pointing at Toseland you are highlighting that race direction in that instance had taken a strict liability approach and punished him. I agree that seems to be the case, and there are many who thought it very harsh but still if race direction had been consistent and always taken that approach there would be no cause for complaint as people would simply say the rules are the rules. I agree that there is inconsistency from race direction and this needs to be addressed.
It is not my intention to create a grey area, and if you think that I am partisan then you are mistaken. What I would like to see is a consistent approach from Race Direction where either a strict liability approach is always taken, or other factors are considered. What is clear is that consistency is vital. Moreover, if other factors will come in to play thus creating this grey area it needs to be clear to everyone what those other factors are. Clearly other factors came in to play with that pass, and some of the more cynical would say it was Rossi's superstardom, whilst some would argue as I did that there was no intent.
A lot of arguments about the pass are clouded by 'Rossi this' and 'Stoner that' but perhaps what needs revising is not the pass by Rossi ad infinitum, but rather the rule book. The reason people are looking at what Rainey said about it, or what Schwantz had to say, or what has been said on this site, is because there seems to be minimal direction from Race Direction on what is and isnt acceptable.
If passes are considered on a case by case basis, arguably in the interest of keeping racing exciting, which is something we all want, then the factors at play need to be made clear. Hopefully that will settle some of the debate and help everyone understand decisions in the future regardless of which riders they involve. It must be quite a circuit to ride and makes for spectacular viewing from the armchair, but I'm one who concurs with JB's views on Laguna as a MotoGP circuit. It fits in the same mould as Le Mans,the current Misano and to a lesser degree Sachsenring, Ricardo Tormo and Motegi touchy subject right now.
The second half of the season throws up some great GP circuits. One I particularly like is Aragon. It would be great to see them use the entire length of that back straight as they did in SBK this year. Back to LS , it was a great duel and result depending on which side of the fence you were on. As a full length GP spectacle it failed miserably like ,06,07, A snorefest after 20 laps or whatever. Mind you, no one will forget those first 20 of in a hurry. A repeat of last Sunday's Sachsenring battles all race long will suit me just fine.
That was then and this is now.
Jeremy Burgess On Laguna 2008 - How Valentino Rossi Beat Casey Stoner
I guess JB may see Dani in a different light now, but not by much. I concur with his view of George vs Dani. George is just too much dog. Even after Casey threw it into the kitty litter, the rest of the race I was trying to catch my breath after one of the best duels I have ever witnessed. It is still the best race at Laguna.. And I have been too , and will be there again this year. So what are you watching? That little kitty litter thing looked like a brake check to me. The finish might have been different if Casey didn't have to avoid ramming Rossi.
Interesting observation, because if I remember correctly there was an article I read in the Philip island guide with Casey which asked him about Laguna and the corkscrew move, and his answer was basically that he didn't think there was much wrong with the corkscrew move but that his post race comments to Rossi were more about sustained brake checking throughout the race that he believed was to dangerous for MotoGP.
Given how much car drivers tend to bitch about brake checking i'm not surprised that bike riders would consider it even worse. I don't think I've ever come across brake checking in motogp before or since LS08 which makes you wonder at the validity of the claim.. Matt Roberts called it brake checking in parc ferme right after the race and if you watch the interview Casey looks surprised by the comment. I suspect Rossi altered corner entry and exit every single corner and lap especially coming on to the main straight as it was the ducatis strongest point at the time.
I suspect Casey was also well aware of it after 17 or so laps. Cars have brake lights which completely alters the dynamics of the brake checking theory. It still seems the only way to win on the beast. I also agree it sometimes looks like Stoner doesn't have a plan B. He felt it was the other way around: Casey won because he took the bike to the absolute limit, it was his skill as a rider to be able to take some victories with such a difficult bike. Did he say that before or after his comment about having an easy fix for the Ducati, or rather before or after miserably failing to implement that fix when Rossi started riding it?
He said it after. It was a TV interview done in Australia recently. JB said that Casey was an "amazing" rider and that Ducati really didn't listen to him in terms of what the bike needed over the last few years. He said that when Casey was successful and won they took it as a sign that everything was fine with the bike, when in reality Casey was just prepared to put hit nuts on the line to win.
He also said that Valentino was not prepared to ride that hard and that they needed to make the bike more rideable in order for him to be competitive on it. I think JB's opinion of Stoner has changed significantly after spending 9 months trying to tame the Ducati with Vale. He seems to have a new respect for him. JB always had respect for Stoner, although that has undoubtedly increased in the last few months. But I do recall that JB said that Honda needed to hire Stoner if they wanted to win the world championship.
But JB's comments about Pedrosa are over the top. I think Pedrosa could have won the world championship this year, even against Stoner, if it wasn't for the Simoncelli incident. After all Pedrosa should have had a significant advantage over Stoner because he has been on the Honda since , so it is reasonable to expect he would have the bike dialed in better than Stoner at most tracks, enough the make the tenth or two difference per lap that he needed over a race distance.
I think it would be quite crazy if a racer actually any MotoGP racer didn't have a plan B. The problem is, that plan B doesn't usually yield results anywhere close to plan A, thus people think you don't have one. That's how close racer and bikes are these days hence not much overtaking.
Overtaking mostly only happens if someone is riding plan B because his tire is shot, braking issues etc. This was a bit of a softball interview. You didn't even mention the most controversial pass for the last 10 years! I would be interested to hear how JB would try to spin the sanctioning body bending the rulebook for Rossi in the name of 'good racing'.
I think with hindsight we can see that Rossi didn't force Stoner into a mistake, Stoner couldn't go fast enough to keep the tires in the operating range so fell prey to the Duc's main weakness. I guess Stoner's mistake was letting Rossi in front. JB's lap time complaints don't stand up to the record. Rossi had progressed at least 1 sec from Fri to Sun every year at Laguna, it is all on motogp. Unusual of him to make mistakes with data. As far as shitty little track goes the riders seem to like it.
It seems like he is holding a grudge against the track for some reason. His comment on it favoring local heroes is common sense for the first year or 2 as we saw, but since then there have been no local heroes winning. In fact Dani Pedrosa is about the exact opposite of a local hero and he won in And when has it ever been the case of slagging tracks that emphasize rider skill? Isn't that what this whole circus is about? Jerez is a bad example to use as a critique for Pedrosa's racecraft. At that point of the season he was still having arm numbness issues and went in for surgery right after the Jerez race.
His post race quote was that he was surprised and happy to be on the podium at all with a bum collarbone. I was commissioned to write a story about the bikes, and why they won at Laguna. I was lucky enough to get more from Burgess, but that pass - one which, incidentally, I have never regarded as controversial, mainly because it wasn't a pass - was not a subject that was discussed.
There was a bunch of stuff I didn't ask, because I had limited time and it wasn't part of the original remit.
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Why do you not think it was not a pass and not controversial? Passes sometimes take turns to complete. Stoner passed Rossi on the brakes at the top of the hill. If a rider accidentally leaves the track then he may rejoin it at the place indicated by the officials or at a place which does not provide an advantage to him.
By all rider accounts and video footage Rossi left the track and did it accidentally. Immediately reentering the track and pushing Stoner wide nearly off the track and forcing him to roll off gave Rossi an immediate 1 sec gap which some people would call an advantage. Maybe through some contorted interpretation it can, similar to Rossi's yellow flag passing incident at PI where he was judged to have given the place back then repassed again 10 feet later so he passed under a yellow and gave the place up, then took it back, all in 20 feet, all at race pace, all by the rulebook, shredded though it is.
The problem is that it was a right-left turn complex and he did not really give back the position it was merely a consequence of the line he took which he was able to take because he passed under a waving yellow. The funnier part is that Rossi said he never saw the waving yellow so if he never saw it why would he give the position back? Justification after the fact with questionable facts to back it up.
Get your facts straight: Stoner passed Rossi on the straight up to the corkscrew pushing Rossi to balance with the knee on a straight, on purpose or not this was clearly the dirtiest and the most dangerous move of the race, funny how no one is whining about that. Rossi didn't have a gap of 1 second, Stoner was all over him in the next corner for goodness sakes. What's funny is that I've asked the same question about Stoner's move on the Rahal straight about 10 times here, and always gotten no answer from the whinees.
You must watch different races to the rest of us. You're the first person I've ever heard suggest Stoner was making dirty moves in that race.
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In fact I can't remember that accusation ever being levelled at him at any time. That's because he lost. The fact you don't remember the incident tells a lot about your knowledge on what happened and what you focused on. Media just rode on the story of pissed off Stoner giving Roberts the interview and everything else was forgotten, of course anti-Rossi's won't remember anything else. I respect your opinions but there is a lot of anti this, whinees that and bashers there in your comments.
I have heard JB himself say that the engineers prefer to make it all about the bike. On the one hand I can understand that, but when you see them on TV getting all excited in the box when a rider makes a brilliant pass you have to wonder how sincere that comment was. As the man famously quoted as saying " But, with no Ducati likely to be on the Podium this weekend though piloted by winners of 3 of the 6 races in the MotoGP era , and theoretically minimal intrusions from the fuel restrictions you'd think JB wouldn't mind that.
If any other rider in the world would brake late and run completely off at a chicane and almost run the rider he was racing off the track upon reentering he would be penalized. Casey passed Rossi coming up the hill. Rossi repassed Casey on the inside of the quick left before the big righthand downhill at a speed such that he couldn't make enough of a left turn to keep him on the track so he ran off.
When a rider leaves the track he loses possession of the racing line yet Rossi comes back on and would have crashed into Stoner if Casey didn't roll off and take evasive action. Is your point by posting the video that his move was within the rulebook? Can we now pull the same move at any chicane? Brake late, blow the first corner and cut the second out by riding over the grass then ride right back onto the racing line forcing someone to roll off?
Let's see how that works at Mizano or Mugello. It was a crap move but it was a Rossi crap move which means it is OK. I'd like Rossi a lot more as a rider if he was not given such blatant favoritism by the people supposed to be equally enforcing the rules. Maybe it is not totally his fault but he is not an actor on camera for our benefit.
VR is fighting to stay on wheels , and CS was on his own line , with already established tempo. I am not saying Rossi should have magically corrected his line mid-corner or making any judgment calls about his intentions. I am saying that he ran off the track and reentered improperly without any penalty from race control. They would not have made the same call for anyone else. All the riders mention from time to time in subtle and not so subtle comments about how they are not Rossi so the rules apply differently.
Rossi was in front going in and was in front coming out.. This was not defining in terms of the race. How many times did Stoner overtake Rossi afterwards, only to be pegged back again? Look at it as part of his education..
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His race tactics shows it still weighs heavily and it's probably scarred him for life. This entire discussion has revolved around race direction's bad call IMO and how they seem to favor Rossi. How does that translate to a Rossi hater? From your perspective I guess if you are not all Rossi all the time you are a hater. Oh, and your description of what happened seems to have left out the minor detail of Rossi running off track. Minor oversight, I'm sure. Oh, he got repassed a lot so we can ignore this one? How exactly would we write that into the rulebook? All I am asking for is consistent application of the rules.
What other rider pushes the limit so much without even a reprimand? When was the last time you saw a rider push someone off the track?
Pass under a waving yellow on camera and not get a penalty? Yes, it's only happened a few times, but that is a few times more than any other rider. I always hated the statement that Rossi was bigger than the sport. Unfortunately, it is true and there is nothing worse for the ethics of a sport than to be overshadowed by one if its participants. Yes this all comes across as a bit whiney on the internet, but to me so do your replies that are based on not much more than pure fanboism.
If Casey wins the title this year he will be the most successful rider in the cc era. Even if he does not win the title he will have the most cc victories. Doesn't sound to me like a rider scarred for life. Chris Official Typical Rossi Hater http: It was a great battle and if we get more of the same this weekend most fans will be delighted after a rather insipid first half, last weekend aside.
Rossi is not on the radar at present.. Chris is right and pointing out the rule that you can't gain an advantage by leaving the track, and the fact that Rossi did, doesn't make him a Rossi hater. To make that pass stick he would have to stay on the track and make the right hand part of the corkscrew and he didn't. He left the circuit defined by the white lines that were in place and went onto the dirt. When he rejoined the track, he kept the place he gained by leaving the track. The thing you need to remember is this; if Rossi had slowed enough to stay ON the circuit and pulled it back to the left far enough to make the right, Casey would have breezed past him and kept his place.
But Rossi didn't slow it enough to make it, left the circuit and gained an advantage. This is why it shouldn't have been allowed to stand. How many of us have bemoaned the rules and their negative influence? LS08 was great entertainment and a cracking race, while it lasted. The fact that it didn't was all down to Stoner and his mistake.
Let's say, like Chris, Rossi gained an advantage of a second at the corkscrew. What do you propose as a fair penalty considering how early the incident took place in the race and that Rossi won by 13 secs? To me, Stoner prevented Rossi from a penalty. He just managed to avoid a collision with Rossi and then staying on track. Would he have gone down, the move would be seen in a very different perspective. Maybe a 5 or 10 second penalty would have been sufficient.
Rossi would still have won. The rules are there for everyone to know but it seems they're applied inconsistently. I don't think Chris is missing the point at all. The rules provide a level playing field for all riders and manufacturers and this premise of a level playing field is in ruins if one rider is allowed to break them. I don't agree that any rider should gain advantage by breaking the rules, especially in the name of 'good racing'.
Whilst I agree that some rules have a negative influence and some could be changed to make for better racing, I don't think the rule about not being able to gain an advantage by leaving the racetrack is one of them. It is reminiscent of a football team blaming one missed freekick for a 3 nil drubbing.. I think Rossi's ego is the one left scarred and damaged after he first threw a leg over the Ducati and realised what he was getting himself into and what Stoner had been riding to beat him plenty of times in the past.
Casey losing his cool is nothing new, and unfortunately for him Laguna is the place synonymous with where it all started to go wrong. That is down to Rossis performance in that race, which some of you struggle to acknowledge. His confidence took a kicking from which he is only just starting to emerge now he's on the Honda. Since then he has been out of contention at the pointy end of every season, allowing him to ride with a freedom others have not had because they've been focussed on points and the big prize. This is also when he has won most of his races. Stoner is in an unfamiliar place.
He is a talent and probably the fastest man on the planet at the moment.. Okay, everyone just wants to remember where Stoner caught fire in the last 6 races. Wherever his inconsistency came from I'm pretty sure he didn't suddenly find a few seconds once the pressure was off and besides, the Ducati provides a far more plausible explanation for erratic results than any amateur psych. Things will be different for him this year. He's NEVER been in this position before, having to defend a shrinking championship lead in the second half of the season. Let's see how he goes. I think he'll choke, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.
If he does win it under a sustained assault, it will be the making of him. If you think Stoner was scarred for life you obviously didn't watch the race at Phillip Island just a few months later. And this year, Rossi on the Ducati is nowhere to be seen The one that miffed Stoner is the one shown at secs. Stoner could have held his exit line and speed and run Rossi off the outside of the track on exit from that corner and the whole history of that event and quite probably the '08 championship, for that matter! He didn't do that, we were treated to a magnificent race and both of those guys deserve credit for what they achieved in equal damn measure.
Personally, while I think Butler is a toad, he did the right thing by the racing with the decision to not intervene and enforce the rules on that occasion. JB is entitled to his opinion but I think he should stick to what he does best. Your timing is impeccable is Mr Emmett. I'm sure he would be happy to if people would stop asking him questions! And what fun would that be?! Thanks David it's always good to read interviews with the legends in the paddock, though unfortunately they are only credited with real insight when they tell you what you want to hear, and to be reminded of what was a great battle and incredible performance by both riders.
The power of that victory is still felt strongly even today.. Loved the description of LS and makes it more special, the technicians can do nothing the riders just have to ride, Brilliant, cannot wait for what promises to be a great weekend. Did Rossi pass on the corkscrew or the grassy knoll.. I fancy Dani may prove you wrong JB. The racing legend that is Wayne Rainey saw only one dubious pass -- and that was when Casey made contact with Valentino! Lawson, Doohan, Schwantz, Rainey, Gardner et al found no problems so why do so many others want to go back in time to complain??
Marty McFly and Dr. Emmett Brown should be placed on stand-by for a re-visit! Find yourself the lap 4 of that race to see the move: Stoner himself said that he didn't have a problem with the corkscrew, because he didn't leave rossi enough room to go anywhere else. I'm posting with my mobile phone, so i can't look for a link atm. Does anybody else remember this? In fact, quite the opposite. But now that we know, according to you, that it isn't all about set up here, can we expect to see Vale in the winners circle this week end?
And speaking about plans A and B, do you and Vale have a plan C? That would be what you plan to do now that you've discovered that you cannot fix the Ducati in 80 seconds and that your rider is incapable or unwilling to ride the Ducati at the edge like Casey did in order to get the winning results.
And tell me, how does it feel to have a 'Shockingly Poor Racer" like Dani Pedrosa beat your man by 27 seconds? Regarding the "brake check" conspiracy. Mamola called it live during the race. Rossi gained a small advantage accelerating out of the the last corner onto the start finish straight lap after lap. Casey admitted that the fall was down to his own mistake for gawd's sake!
People see that as a brake check only because it looked like Stoner almost ran into the back of Rossi. Has it ever occured to anyone that Stoner realised he had to stay as close to Rossi as possible coming out of that final corner and simply outbraked himself going into it? Again, Mamola called it, Stoner admitted it and yet still people say Rossi brake tested him??? Both guys gave an amazing display that day of racers on the limit, but I think ultimately Rossi won it in terms of how to fry your opponent's brain and wreck their race rhythm. I think the corkscrew move was pretty irrelavent Another thing people have failed to see in 3 years surprise surprise is that Stoner had went wide on turn 11 3 or 4 laps before the tumble and lost about.
This is what this is all about IMO. People can't see past their own biases. When that kind of evidence isn't enough what's the point? Everytime this comes up it's like the IQ Level in here drops to that of a Blonde listening to "Breath in, Breath Out" on her headphones. JB's been around a long time, won more championships than I care to remember, seen more riders, tracks and bikes, so I'm guessing he knows what he's talking about.
I'm not sure that being Australian has anything to do with it, I think maybe some people are to used to "PR" speak. Long live JB and his ability to see straight and even more so his ability to talk straight in an age of corp double talk. The man has done his time and his record speaks for itself.
He doesn't have to hand out kittens to armchair critics. On the same note; bring back Kenny Roberts. He'd race in japan and probably do a few laps around the nukes for laughs. That interview was from years ago and there have been significant changes since.
Still, it was a good read. Based on his reputation I used to have a pretty high opinion of Mr Burgess but the more I hear him speak the more I question my initial assesment. With his comments about Dani totally wrong as proven yet again last week and the "80 second fix", his stock has gone down, down, down. I agree with thecosman. Vale is a great racer, one of the greatest, but he does get special consideration when it comes to rules interpretation. The Laguna race was a great one but Vale should have been penalized for the corkscrew off track incident.
I couldn't have laid it out any better, or plainer, than thecosman did. You can't really hold it against Vale - but Mr Butler, he knows better - but just won't admit it. Both Burgess and Rossi had some rather arrogant and smart-arse things to say about various riders, particularly Stoner at Ducati, and now both of them are being forced to eat humble pie every race weekend. But as for penalties against Rossi, he has gotten away with far worse than LS His punting of Gibernau off the track on the last corner at Jerez in was a disgrace, but nothing was done about it.
Hopefully these days no-one would get away with that kind of move. Rossi braked extra early in the last corner and drifted wide blocking the entire track and Casey, setting up another valiant, yet futile, pass attempt down the main "straight", baled to avoid him and binned it. I think that year the Ducati handled pretty well so the bike can't be blamed unlike the ealier or later versions of Prezioso's macabre imagination.
Personally, I'd have run right into him, bermed him into the Laguna dust, and taken the lead for good but that would mean I would have been guilty of racing like Rossi. Stoner, however, seems to prefer the cleaner, survivable, professional type race. Not sure that that is a weakness considering he's won more races than anyone else for quite some time and more this year than the returning local heroes have ever won in their entire careers combined.
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Okay, I'm pretty sure it's not a weakness. Regardless, the two will never meet in the same circumstances ever again so get therapy or anger management or maybe yank the old rosary out of the top drawer and get the hell over it. I personally did not see much wrong with the race. If Stoner had Mladin's attitude then I am certain that Rossi would have been on the floor and possibly Mladin as well.
Then again Rossi would probably not try such moves on such an opponent. I once pushed a racer off the track during practice, he was my friend, and he stayed there in the dirt, completely pinned, all the way to the next corner. I had to either let him back on the track, or be the cause of his serious injury. It is not golf, the moves you make have to take into account who you are making them on.
Such a pity that Stoner made that mistake because they would have battled to the last second. If 'Rossi had got into Stoner's head' as some people believe then Stoner would have eased off at that point. Everyone points to this race as an example of how Casey would fold under the legendary 'Rossi pressure'. But somehow I doubt we'll be seeing a repeat performance by Rossi now he is on the Ducati and Stoner is not.
Its now clear what an amazing feat it was from Stoner to even be battling for the lead, let alone be pre race favourite. Let's imagine for the sake of an argument, it was Simoncelli doing the same maneuver to Dani Pedrosa. I'm positive Simo would be penalized. I also feel rules are applied differently and Valentino got away with it. Online resource FREE online PubMed abstract 25 Family physicians' perceived prevalence, safety, and screening for cigarettes, marijuana, and electronic-nicotine delivery systems ENDS use during pregnancy.
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